Episode 5: The Power of Habits in Business and Religion w/Rabbi Jevin Eagle
Joining me in conversation for this episode is Rabbi Jevin Eagle. Jevin is a former business executive and is a graduate of Hebrew College Rabbinical School student. He is also currently the executive director of Boston University Hillel. Prior to that, Jevin was the CEO of DavidsTea, a senior executive at Staples, and a partner at Mckinsey and company. Jevin has an MBA from Harvard business school and a bachelor's from Dartmouth. Before Harvard business school, he helped found Jewish Lights Publishing. He currently serves on the board of directors for Carter's Inc, the leading brands at apparel marketer for babies and young children.
Leaving behind a successful career in business to pursue his life-long dream of becoming a Rabbi, Jevin shares with us his journey from the boardroom to the study hall (the beit midrash).
I asked him how he was able to juggle the responsibilities of work and family all the while tending to his spiritual health. His response in one word: discipline. Waking up early on Sunday mornings before his family was up he made sure to dedicate some time for his own spiritual growth.
We began our conversation with a famous quote from the Talmud (shabbat 31a) that says the first question a person is asked when they get to heaven is: “were you honest in your business dealings?” And then the second question is whether or not you set aside fixed times for the study of Torah. How counter-intuitive, Jevin points out, that the first question in the most holy and spiritual places of all is a question about something so earthly and mundane.
“But it shocks us into realizing that for us to be religious people and to be connected to the ineffable, to God, it means not just pursuing those connections when we're in synagogue or when we're meditating or when we're hiking. But at the moments when it might be least likely to think of bringing God into your life.” -Jevin Eagle
When thinking about the capitalist nature of our society nowadays, Jevin points out how we live in a time where there is a tension between more respect for emotional and spiritual health on the one hand and then also not so much in other ways:
“In this generation of young people, more people than when I was starting at work, who are expressing and behaving as though there's value in flexibility and time off. There's definitely more of that now than there was then. And there’s definitely more work from home, work remotely, work unusual hours, there's more job sharing. So I do think there's more. There's also though, we know people are working more hours now than they ever have before.” -Jevin
Additionally, he points how the drive for profits has moved us away further from ethics and even away from practices that were actually the norm in the business world in years past:
“[It’s] funny, it's only a generation or a generation and a half old that is taken as a given that the shareholders are the only thing that matters 50, 60, 70 years ago, there was an understanding in many parts of capitalist society that there were other stakeholders such as workers that we were supposed to worry about.” -Jevin
We concluded our conversation with some resources and thinkers to follow up with to continue the learning:
Full Transcript - Scroll below to read along:
Jevin Eagle: 00:00 "And I do think that if all we did was ask ourselves when we're making decisions in business, how does this fit into my conception and understanding of what it means to be an ethical human being? If all we did was asked that question, we're more likely because of that consciousness to end up in a better place."
Misha Clebaner: 00:25 Hello and welcome to Raising Holy Sparks with Misha Clebaner, a show where we celebrate the beauty in the seemingly mundane, discover the extraordinary in the world around us. So much wonder out there. Let's get started.
MC: 00:45 Hey everybody, Misha Clebaner here. Welcome to the show where we push pause on the world around us to go deeper into the things that bring more purpose, meaning and beauty into our lives and the world around us. Today on the podcast we have with us Jevin Eagle. If you haven't subscribed to the show yet, please make sure you do that because we have a lot more great and thought-provoking conversations coming your way. Jevin Eagle is a former business executive and a fifth year Hebrew College Rabbinical School student. He is currently the executive director of Boston University Hillel. Prior to that, Jevin Eagle was the CEO of DavidsTea, a senior executive at Staples, and a partner at Mckinsey and company. He was actually one of the executives responsible for staples Easy brand strategy and the famous EasyButton Jevin has an MBA from Harvard business school and a bachelor's from Dartmouth. Before Harvard business school, he helped found Jewish Lights publishing. He currently serves on the board of directors for Carter's Inc, the leading brands at apparel marketer for babies and young children. Enough for me. Let's hear from Jevin Eagle.
MC: 02:08 Hello Jevin, welcome to Raising Holy Sparks. Thanks so much for being on the show.
JE: 02:14 Thank you so much Misha. I am excited to be here.
MC: 02:18 So one way that I like to start the show is by delving into a question that you get frequently, whether it's about Judaism or about business, and just sharing a little bit about your insight into this common question that you get.
JE: 02:36 So the thing people most asked me is why did I leave a successful career in business in order to go learn about Judaism?
MC: 02:48 Wow. They get right to the meat of it.
JE: 02:50 Yeah. People often are really perplexed. I think it's a combination of why did I leave? There's separate questions is why would anyone leave a successful career in business before they're 50 years old. And the other is and of all the things I could have gone to do. Why did I go.. want to go study Jewish texts with people in their twenties in Newton, Massachusetts.
MC: 03:17 And do you ever have an answer or it's kind of just, it was a feeling that you had and it's really, there's no logic behind it.
JE: 03:26 No, there is logic. My logic was this was my lifelong dream and why not pursue life.. Why not try and make dreams come true?
MC: 03:36 So hopefully folks that listen to the podcast, they get that answer out of the way and so they'll be able to go to their next most curious question. So here's my most.. next, most curious question for you: is I know a favorite line from Torah - And when I say Torah I mean that expansively, not just the first five books of Moses - that a favorite teaching of yours is that when somebody goes to heaven or whatever it is that Jews believe in, the first question that's asked of them is - and if this person was in business - the question is: were you ethical in your business dealings? So I'd love it if you could just explain a little bit about what that question even means and where you learned that teaching and what your thoughts are about the importance of this question.
JE: 04:33 So that actually.. that line was line I learned from a fellow student of mine from Dartmouth College. We were both Assistant Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg and that was his line in his application to graduate school. And he was so gracious to share that with me. And I said, what could be more perfect than that? So my application to Harvard business school was... my essay was when you're on the gates of heaven - what's the first question your asked? And it was funny when I told my mother that this was how I was going to write my essay, she says, Oh my God, you can't do that. Then everyone will know you're Jewish and they may not want a Jew at Harvard business school. And I said, well mom, my whole resume and life is filled with things that say I'm Jewish so that we're not going to be able to stop that one.
JE: 05:22 So why not be proud of what I am as opposed to running away from it. So this comes from Pirkei Avot, Ethics of our fathers, which is a unique, special tractate of the Talmud. And it's a section that deals with ethical sayings. So much wisdom in them. Beautiful, beautiful thing to study. And I think what's so powerful about it to me is how counter intuitive it is. Like if you were imagining yourself inside of a religious tradition, you probably wouldn't be imagining that the first question is, were you honest in your dealings? It might be where you kind to people? Did you give to charity? Did you pray? Did you go to synagogue? Did you go to church? But instead, this is the question. And I think the answer is.. I think there's many answers.
JE: 06:14 But it shocks us into realizing that for us to be religious people and to be connected to the ineffable, to God, it means not just pursuing those connections when we're in synagogue or when we're meditating or when we're hiking. But at the moments when it might be least likely to think of bringing God into your life. Those are the moments when you can prove the fact. Where are the important things to you in life?
MC: 06:43 I can imagine why that question is important to you, but was your mentor, Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg was He in business? Why did this question sit at the top of his mind?
JE: 06:55 His teaching was that Judaism is a religion that is focused on this world and on ALL people, not just the rabbis and the priests and the elite. So this statement recognizes that it's everything we do. It's all, and it's all of us and it's in the moments when you might least imagine it. The famous Hasidic teaching is quoting from the Torah: "All of the world is filled with God's glory" and the Hasidic masters say it's the key to religious expression is: being able to find God in everything and in every moment. So what's the moment when it might be "hardest, the least likely" to find God? It's when you're doing business. It's not when you're in synagogue or when your child was just born or you just got married. Those are moments that all of us are happy, you know, all of us could imagine viewing is religious moments.
MC: 07:49 Yeah, I can imagine that I'm in the place where you're so focused on the... I remember once I was telling someone that I was studying the prophets from the Torah such as Isaiah or Jeremiah, and they tell me, oh, that's so funny. I was talking about profits - as in business profits today as well. So I'm curious, so you were saying that, we have to try to find those little moments, not just in obvious transitional moments in our lives, such as a wedding or what have you, but we have to look for them in our everyday life. For instance, if we're working in business, do you remember a time when you, either the moment was so obvious to you, while working business or a time when you just felt so in the secular world and you kind of forced yourself to look around you and find something spiritual or holy in the business work that you were doing?
JE: 08:53 Well, I would say there's, I can give you two completely contradictory answers to that. One would be there are many, many memories I have of business where the focus was on profit and meeting the needs of the shareholders and not doing what is best for all the stakeholders involved.
MC: 09:16 Right, absolutely. That's the legal responsibility is to think about the shareholders first. Otherwise that can be held liable.
JE: 09:25 But I really do remember times when the most ethical, positive answer possible with something that was not pursued and not even discussed because the expectation was you're only going to focus on profits. And while yes, although this is funny, it's only a generation or a generation and a half old that is taken as a given that the shareholders are the only thing that matters 50, 60, 70 years ago, there was an understanding in many parts of capitalist society that there were other stakeholders such as workers that we were supposed to worry about. But I definitely remember moments when I wasn't proud of the company I was working with or for or even myself, you know, living up to the standard. And I, by the way, I think when it says we are ethical in your business, I think it's more than just what did you observe the letter of the law. I think it's really asking us more than. There is an expression "lifnei m'shurat hadin" - to go.. to go beyond the letter.. the legal line, the letter of the law. I also think one.. some very enlightened business people today will argue that by doing the right thing it is good for business, so I... But I could take you down that I of saying that really there is tension and it's not.. it's not easy. So the reason why this is such a powerful question on.. near the gate to the World to Come is because it's hard.
MC: 10:53 So I'm curious when you were in that position of feeling not so comfortable about what was happening around you, how were you able to kind of find the holy sparks around you or some goodness or to create a little bit of goodness in that, you know, earthly, really-grounded capitalist situation that you were in?
JE: 11:16 I spent 10 years meeting on a weekly basis with a teacher. First learning Hebrew and then learning texts. And some of those 10 years in a somewhat regular prayer practice. And I will say my awareness as a businessperson changed when I was engaged in that regular learning and prayer. Where I was just more aware. You know, I was more aware of the religious implications, and the moral ethical implications of what I was doing. I can't point to any one thing in particular and say, you know, we did x instead of y because of that, but I can tell you my awareness and sensibility was meaningfully different and almost all of the Torah that I was learning during this 10 years. When I talked to my teacher and we studied the text together, reflected back on my work.
JE: 12:10 My view is that anything going on in our lives that's important to us, Torah can speak to us and inform what we're doing and so much of the texts that I learned, whether or not it was Torah and stories in the Torah or if it was studying Mussar/ethics.. I actually did all of Pirkei Avot with my teacher.
JE: 12:32 So many relevancies that come up. And I do think that if all we did was asked ourselves when we're making decisions in business, how does this fit into my conception and understanding of what it means to be an ethical human being? If all we did was asked that question, were more likely because of that consciousness to end up in a better place.
MC: 13:19 I love that. The fact that you had a fixed time for study, so one question that's common for the world of businesses is how do you balance your work life situation. But I think one thing that's left out of that is not only just your family balancing with the business life, but also making time for your own personal spiritual health. So that's kind of three sectors that everyone has to... everyone has to take note of. How were you able to try to balance or wrestle with balancing those three things?
JE: 13:56 I think there's two approaches to the balance by the way. I think one is to try and do all at once. The other is to take a longer term view. I actually studied what defines successful lives and they studied people who describe themselves as having been successful and then looked back on their lives instead. Well, what did these people all have in common? And what they all had in common was they were focused on their personal pleasure. They were focused on performance and results in their lives, so some level of achievement and they were focused on having left a legacy. Most of them had not done all three at once. They had done them at different stages in their lives. Some had done them in parallel. So my case, I've worked very, very hard in my life to try and have self, family, community all kind of working on all three at once and, and when it comes to self, career, physical self, mental, spiritual self.
JE: 14:52 So I've worked hard at that. It's not easy. So in my case I just, it was a lot of discipline and a lot of repetition. So I really, really made it a priority to wake up every single Sunday morning early before my family was up and did learning. Can't imagine not doing it. It's just so embedded in my life. It's like some people wake up and exercise, some people wake up, read a newspaper, I wake up and study text. And then having the weekly session with the teacher, going to the gym physically. But it's hard and not everyone is able to be so rigid. You know, it comes with positives, but it comes with negatives too.
MC: 15:30 Did you ever have any colleagues that reached out to you and said, "Jevin, you're so good at making time for your spiritual health help me try to work towards that as well". Or people kind of just thought you were in a little bit Kooky for wanting to have a spiritual life.
JE: 15:50 A little bit in the first. It was more people observing and acknowledging it, I would say sometimes genuinely wanting to learn from it. And other times not appreciating the rigidity, rigidity of it. Because if I was meeting, you know, if I couldn't be in the office till 9:00 on Fridays and other colleagues were or my boss was and wanted to see me. That was some cost to it. It was some cost to it. I mean, for me the benefits were far greater than the costs, but there was some cost to it.
MC: 16:17 Did you have any success with helping your colleagues down that road to bring a little bit more spiritual health into their lives?
JE: 16:25 Yes, for sure. And certainly just being a role model. Absolutely. I'm a big fan of "it's quality, not quantity" in terms of hours at the workplace, but it's hard. It's not easy. When I was traveling most frequently in my career as a consultant, I got feedback when I was already a partner. Some of the feedback I got from the senior partners was that I wasn't traveling enough! That was upsetting to me because I was traveling all the time and they said, well, you weren't at the client often enough. And really from a religious point of view, being present for people is a real religious value, so that's positive, but being present and being part of your family is also a religious value. So I think there are tradeoffs. I think back to the original thing where you ethical in your business dealings suggests that might.. there might be some trade offs in that and I think being able to know what's important, what's important and where are you willing to make the trade offs is part of how to build a life of meaning and purpose.
MC: 17:25 Absolutely. I'm curious, how do you think that wisdom of building a life of meaning and purpose applies nowadays in kind of the rising workplace culture that we have, really coming out of silicon valley and places like Google, where it they're not thinking about that quality versus quantity divide. But rather they're saying we'll put our gym in the workplace, we'll have great food in the workplace. We want the work to become your life. Do you, are you at all concerned about this kind of growing trend of the quantity really subsuming people's lives?
JE: 18:04 Well, I think it's.. I'm not sure it's as black and white is that there's definitely in this generation of young people, more people than when I was starting at work who are expressing and behaving as though there's value in flexibility and time off. There's definitely more of that now than there was then. And these definitely more work from home work remotely, work unusual hours, there's more job sharing. So I do think there's more. There's also though, we know people are working more hours now than they ever have before. So I think, I think there's multiple things going on there and it depends on the sector that you're in. There was a lot of research done when I was at Mckinsey on whether or not paying people more was a good way to motivate people marginally. And their finding was no. The most important way to motivate people was for them to be engaged, to feel engaged in their work.
JE: 19:03 If you feel engaged in your work. You're far more likely to be motivated to contribute more. So I, I think it's a complex thing. I think layered on top of it in the last 10 years or so, the polarization of community both in the Jewish community as well as the American community and in the Israeli community. This is related but not the same thing you were saying, but I think that's very troublesome, troublesome for creating lives of meaning and purpose because communities have been divided. And relationships that in the past that existed as respectful disagreement have been pushed to relationships of viewing each other as deviant. And that's unhealthy. Certainly unhealthy for meaning and purpose.
MC: 19:51 So while in the past, if you were a knife salesman that was a democrat and your fellow knife salesman was a republican, you were able to come together for meals, but nowadays I imagine it's probably harder to come together as coworkers across the political divide.
JE: 20:10 It is harder and there are fewer and fewer things you're allowed to talk about or if you do, you run the risk problems. One of the business situations I'm still involved with today, I've been there almost 10 years and the flex.. and the involvement there is based on relationships. Not just transactions and there's less I can talk about with people than we used to because of this issue. And how do you develop meaningful, deep, respectful relationships if you don't feel you can speak to people about things that are important to you? Or all of the things that are important to you?
MC: 20:54 Do you think that there's anything that the spiritual communities or religious communities can bring into the business setting or just America as a whole to try to help people overcome these political divides? For us to be able to be a community again?
JE: 21:13 I definitely, certainly, you know, my, one of the biggest themes of my studying for the rabbinate has been our school, Hebrew College, Rabbinic School's focus, on understanding all human beings as being made in God's image and in God's likeness and seeing the other as a reflection of the most precious imaginable and hearing their words as holy words. And our tradition celebrating and memorializing different points of views.
MC: 21:48 Do you feel like you've had success since starting rabbinical school to really let that message seep into the, your interactions with folks that come from whatever the opposite side of the political spectrum you're on.. at, since beginning your studies? Has that idea of Betzelem Elokim - being made in the image of God... has that helped your kind of interactions with, with other folks or it's still a work in progress or just tell, tell us a little bit about that journey if it's been impacted at all.
JE: 22:26 Well, it's definitely on my consciousness. It's definitely something I think about. I do think we learned some important skills in rabbinic school about how one would do that, how to listen, how to look for difference. But I don't think I'm as good as I want to be and I certainly don't think I've been able to deploy it as much as I'd like, so, but the environment's changing so rapidly and getting more and more challenging. So we shall see. I'm planning to teach a class at BU next semester. So in you know, six or eight weeks from now on pluralism. What, what does it mean to really have a pluralist community at a Hillel on a college campus today? How do we hear as many voices as possible and how we learn from difference and celebrate difference? And create an environment where people feel like their identities can be fully expressed even if their identities are different than their friends or colleagues? So we're going to be studying and working hard on it.
MC: 23:33 And so that's one great way that the religious community can send its positive message into the business world or just the larger secular world. I'm curious, is there you think that religious or spiritual communities can learn from the business world?
JE: 23:51 At some level, religious and spiritual communities should be able to learn from everything. The mission is to bring God - if the mission is, which I certainly think it is for Judaism, my Judaism - to bring God into every aspect of life and the world and to all people then Pirkei Avot says: "who is the wise person - aizeh who hacham? The one who can learn from anyone". So, at that level for sure, but I do think business is such a platform for how the world works. Look, God worked for six days before resting for one day. The model of if we're going to copy God, we're going to work six out of seven days. We're going to create and we're going to divide and we're going to create, create, create, you know, are the words. So we are, I believe are natural. We were created in order to do things in the world, not just not just to rest. So I think learning from how people do that holy work of creating and making things happen, and how to do that in a way that makes the world better.
MC: 25:06 Are there maybe one or two tangible things that you loved about the business world that you think .. just a practical tool that, if it's, if people begin to implement it in the religious communities, they can be improved as a result of that. Something a little bit more tangible?
JE: 25:28 Well, so all of the people processes I use in my work at BU Hillel I learned from the business world, the idea of meeting once a week with people who work for you, the idea of writing down what you're trying to accomplish for the year with goals and objectives and then referring back to it during the year. The idea of checking in. I love the framework of "will and skill". For human beings to get a task done. They have to desire the task being done and they have to have the skill to get the task done. So this is for anything you do in life. And if you have more or less will and more or less skill, depending on which of those are true. There's radically different ways you would go about motivating and helping someone. So you may have, you may be so excited about being able to ski down a double black diamond ski slope, but if you've never skied before, the last thing we need to do is get you more excited. The first thing we have to do is to turn is teach you how to put on your boots and how to then put the boots into the skis and probably had to stop, right? [MC: pizza, french fries.] Exactly so, but applying the will and skill is something I learned directly from business. And these people processes I learned directly from business and then reapply them to BU Hillel. It helps us get the job done and manage people well and have much more impact than we would have if we weren't doing these things.
MC: 27:27 So that's a great example of the way that being a second career rabbi has.. you've really been benefited as a result of all your years in business. I kind of want to do a bit of a hypothetical, imaginative exercise now. I'm curious, what do you imagine your life might've been like if you went directly into the rabbinate out of undergrad or grad School? Well, I guess not Grad school because that was for business. Just directly out of undergrad and been a rabbi first and foremost. How do you think that? Where do you think you'd be now?
JE: 28:03 I'd probably be running a Hillel or senior rabbi in a synagogue or running one of the Jewish nonprofits. And I would have a lot of experience with that. Right now I have a year and a half of experience of being a Jewish professional.
MC: 28:18 Do you think you would have got the business bug and left the rabbinate and gone to start grad School for business?
JE: 28:24 I don't know. Hard to imagine. I would have. I do have a friend from Dartmouth who actually went into the rabbinate and then switched to business. It's hard to imagine. I certainly would have less money than I have now and I would have seen less of the world physically because I traveled a lot. And I do think the skill set I now have is more robust. Having had two and a half business careers and now five years of Torah learning and two years of running Hillel, I do have a very exciting combination of those things and hopefully I'll have many more years to live and can combine Torah wisdom and business wisdom into making the world better and having fun while doing that!
MC: 29:12 So one of the strengths I feel of the business world is that people get their elevator pitches down, they learn how to explain the value or the importance of something, whether it's Coca Cola or Nike sneakers. I feel like in the religious world, and when it comes to Judaism, it's so hard to explain to people why they should be interested in experimenting with religion or Judaism. Do you think that it's at all possible to demonstrate the relevance or importance of religion in the modern age or it's just so individual and idiosyncratic that it just has to be felt?
JE: 29:59 No, I think it's possible. Why not?
MC: 30:03 So what, what are your thoughts? Why ... why is, what's the value or importance of religion in the 21st century?
JE: 30:13 To me, we are born, there's research that shows that we are born with innate needs for love, for food, for shelter, for intimacy, and for spiritual meaning. I believe that all human beings have it. It might be latent in some. That doesn't mean that they all want organized religion, meaning go to a synagogue or a church and open a prayer book. But all human beings are programmed genetically with a need for purpose and meaning and connection to the ineffable. I believe that the religious person is at the core is someone who acknowledges that they want to bring that core programmed human need into their life in an open and full way.
JE: 31:08 It's almost, to me, a given that religion has so much to say about life. Because its purpose is helping people connect to the ineffable. It's our job as religious leaders though to demonstrate that that's what religion is and that religion isn't something that's inaccessible and hard and not relevant and boring - which many people see it too big. So, I think nothing is more valuable. I.. look, I'm, I gave up a business career and making a lot of money because this is what I most believe matters. So I'm very optimistic and I believe there's many, many examples of innovation in the Jewish community and elsewhere.. of helping people form real connections and within community and to the higher purpose that we have.
MC: 32:06 I feel like that's a little long for a bumper sticker, but with questions like these, it's probably best to give a serious, meaningful answer than just the elevator pitch of why bother developing a spiritual practice.
JE: 32:22 Thank you. I agree.
MC: 32:24 So to conclude our interview, I'd love to just give five rapid fire questions. Say the first thing that comes to your mind. Some of them are even es, no questions. So that'll be easy. And uh, we'll conclude it there. All right. Number One, do you meditate?
JE: 32:44 No.
MC: 32:47 Number two, who are some of your favorite public thinkers? Public intellectuals right now.
JE: 32:57 Yehuda Kurtzer, Donniel Hartman. Arthur Green. Thomas Friedman. Barack Obama.
MC: 33:11 Alright, I'm going to stop you there because I feel like your list can just go on and on. All right. Number three. What's one must read book for the world of business and one must read book in the world of religion or Judaism more specifically?
JE: 33:29 "Good to great" is the one must read for business, but it's really for everyone, not just for business. And I would say "As a driven leaf" by Milton Steinberg as the religious book.
MC: 33:40 All right, number four. So we began our conversation with the teaching about the first question we're asked when we get to the world to come is, were you honest in your business ethics? What's model role model business nowadays in the United States or globally that you think more people should support because they have good business ethics?
JE: 34:06 I have to pass. There's none in particular that I would call out right now.
MC: 34:12 All right. Always allowed to pass. Okay. And then the final question is, what's a favorite quote of yours that you keep in your back pocket to stay motivated in all realms of life?
JE: 34:32 "Naaseh Adam Betzl'menu kidmuteinu - Let us create God in our image, and in our likeness".
MC: 34:36 Amen. Well, thank you so much for joining us today for Raising Holy Sparks. It's been a pleasure having you. And you are the executive director of BU Hillel. So for any college students that are in the Boston area and are looking for a place of community, they can come to BU Hillel. Is that correct? Or is it just for Bu Students?
JE: 35:04 Not anyone who wants is welcome. We love everyone.
MC: 35:08 Alright, there you go. All are welcome. If you're in the Boston area and even if you're not in the Boston area, it's worth. You're worth.. the worth effort to, to travel all the way there. Well, thank you so much again and take care.
JE: 35:20 Thank you so much. Be well.
MC: 35:25 All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Jevin Eagle. If you did enjoy the conversation, we have many more like this coming up, so be sure to subscribe to Raising Holy Sparks. And if you really enjoyed it, please be sure to leave a five star review as it helps to support the show. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week for our next episode. Be well and be the awesome you that you are. The world needs it.
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